Multimedia Games, Inc.
HOST:  Mr. Gordon Graves
DATE:  January 16, 2001

OPERATOR:  Good afternoon and welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the Multimedia Investor Relations conference call.

At this time, I would like to inform you that all participants are in a listen-only mode. At the request of the company, we will open up the conference for questions and answers after the presentation.

I will now turn the conference over to Miss Julia Spencer. Please go ahead, ma'am.

MISS SPENCER:  Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the Multimedia Games Investor conference call. I'd just like to read a short statement before we start.

The following comments, including any statements predicated upon or preceded by the words “potential,” “believe,” “expect,” and “should” are considered forward-looking statements within the meaning of federal and state securities laws. Such statements are subject to a number of uncertainties that could cause the actual results to differ materially from those expected including, but not limited to, those described under Item 1, Description of Business Risk Factors contained in the company's annual report on Form 10-K for the fiscal year ended September 30, 2000, which are incorporated herein by this reference.

I'd like to now turn the call over Mr. Gordon Graves, our Chairman and CEO.

MR. GRAVES:  Thank you, Julia. Last month we released our year end numbers for FY 2000, and as most of you know we beat our projections by about 15 percent. And we made almost $14 million in EBITDA. Our staff did just a great job in the last quarter, or for the whole year for that matter.

As late as early September, we were still projecting that we'd be around $12 million in EBITDA. I personally think that we could possibly double that EBITDA this year 2001, but I want to add quickly that our President, Clifton Lind, whom most of you know and the rest of our staff believe that my thoughts on this question are certainly overly optimistic. It's their feeling that a 30-40% growth rate is much more reasonable and they're probably right about that. But as I look at our business model and at the developing marketplace in front of us right now I see some extremely exciting opportunities for MGAM.

Internet gaming for just one example is an avenue for us that we can explore that could provide us with some completely new ways to prosper, and I'd like to talk a little bit about the internet today.

But first, for the benefit of some of you who are not too familiar with the company, let me talk a little bit about our core business.

Multimedia Games is basically a technology supplier to the gaming industry. More specifically, or more directly, we run Betnet™, which is a multi-channel interactive communication network. It links player stations and gambling halls. We develop and acquire interactive games to run on that network and we manufacture player stations that allow people at gambling operations or gambling establishments to play those games.

And probably most important in the long term, we write personal computer software that allows people to see the games being played from anywhere in the world via the information highway which, in our case, is normally Betnet™.

And we receive recurring revenue for all the games that we deliver over Betnet™.

Our first quarter for FY 2001 just ended in December, December 31st. Typically, given the seasonality of our business this first quarter, which includes the holiday season, is our weakest. Last year we broke even for the first quarter excluding a one-time sale of 70% of GameBay.com, our free play or play for free internet game site.

In the second quarter last year we made eight cents per share. I think that we'll see some improvement in our financial performance in both the first and second quarters of this year. For sure if we can stay on schedule in filling the backlog of the orders we've now got for our new MegaNanza bingo games.

But it's in the third and fourth quarter that I believe we'll start to see some very dramatic improvements in earnings over last year.

As most of you know, our customers are largely Native American-owned gaming facilities. Next to the gaming players themselves we believe Native American-owned gaming is the most valuable of all gaming customers especially for the technology supplier for a couple of reasons.

First, they're regulated by small, dedicated and efficient governments.

And second, they're culturally inclined to adapt to rapid change more easily than people, most of us from other societies.

And in addition, they're run for and by people who believe very strongly in what they're doing. That's a powerful combination.

At Multimedia Games we have almost 100 Native American tribal customers. With the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, IGRA of 1988, Indian gaming was formally recognized by the U.S. Congress as a vehicle for achieving economic development and self-determination on reservations.

Federal law today divides Indian gaming into three distinct categories or classes:

Class I games are social games that are played intra-tribally solely for small prizes and often involving traditional tribal ceremonies. As technology suppliers we're not very interested in these Class I types of gaming.

Class II and Class III are both gambling types of games that are played predominantly by non-Indians. The Class II game activities consist of bingo which is played for monetary prizes, and pull tabs and lotto and instant bingo as well as similar non-banked card games.

Now in order to engage in Class III gaming the tribes are required to negotiate agreements with their respective states. And Class III gaming activities include all forms that aren't Class I and Class II. So that includes slot machines, and crap tables and horse racing and other house-banked casino games.

Whereas Class II games are regulated by the tribes without any state interference, Class III games require state approval and regulation. In both cases there's a federal commission, The National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC), that oversees the tribal operations and their regulatory process. And our core business is focused on Class II and Class III.

Now those of us with an eye for MGAM's bottom line focus on another aspect of game class distinction. Every time we sell a Class III player station, MGAM receives a one-time revenue of about $8,000 and EBITDA of about $3,000. And then after that our recurring revenue from that machine that we've placed is only about $1,000 per year and EBITDA is only about $900 per year. Contrast that with the latest generation of Class II e-games that we're running, which include our latest bonanza-style MegaNanza bingo games as well as electronic pull tabs and you can see that it's much more profitable for us.

Historically, our revenue in EBITDA has corresponded to the number of player stations we've installed. With Class II games we've had recurring revenue of about a little over $20,000 and EBITDA of about $2,500 per year for every player station we installed.

Now we began designing these new Class II e-games just recently after we'd studied the federal courts interpretation of Class II game definitions in those two lawsuits that we won late in FY 2000. Those definitions from those court cases they tell us really how much latitude our Class II game developers have in using new technology to design better games.

We've now installed our first models of these called new era electronically-aided Class II e‑games at two different facilities in Oklahoma. And from the results there I can tell you that it looks pretty certain that these games are going to be every bit as profitable for the tribes as Class III video lottery games, slot machines, video poker machines or just about any other type of gaming play station that you can think of. And much more profitable for us.

A quick look at the marketplace shows that we've been making recurring revenue of about $3 per day per Class III player station and we've got 1,300 of these in place and about $55 per day for the older style Class II player stations and we've got about 4,000 of those in place.

Our recurring EBITDA has been about $2.50 per day or $900 per year for Class III player station and $7 per day or $2,500 per year for the old Class II equipment.

What we've seen so far with the new Class II e-games, from these new games we've got out there what we've seen we think we'll bring our revenue to well over $100 per day per player station and that our EBITDA will increase to more than $17 per day which is more than $6,000 per year per player station.

We expect to install about 2,000 of these by the end of FY 2001. And about half of those will probably be replacements of some of our older Class II machines, but that really remains to be seen.

Within two years I believe that we'll have at least 5,000 of our new electronic player stations running these new Class II e-games and earning $6,000 per year or thereabout in EBITDA per player station. That's more than $30 million at EBITDA per year.

I believe that the rest of our business will more than cover all of our fixed costs.

This leads me to the internet and I did want to talk about the internet a little bit today. Our internet activity is still very much a forward-looking activity in terms of having any impact on our P&L, but I think it's real important that we talk about it a little bit. The internet could allow us to double our EBITDA to as much as $60 million per year by 2002.

Information and news on internet gaming continues to come pouring in. About a year ago Bear Stearns estimated that approximately 250 companies share in the ownership, development and operation of more than 650 gambling sites. Some of those sites are not up and running any more. The River City Group estimated at that time that internet gambling revenue for 1999 had exceeded $1.2 billion and that it will exceed $3 billion by 2002.

Moreover, Eugene Christiansen of Christianson Capital Advisors projected in Michael Pollack’s Gaming Industry Observer Newsletter recently that internet gambling expenditures will top four and a half billion by 2002.

Now, recently a new study has come out that's called “What are the Odds?” by Greenfield Online out of Connecticut which is an internet research firm that reports that on-line gaming revenue projections are much smaller than previously reported.

And most important many on-line gamblers have lots of complaints and gripes about web-based casinos.

The study found that 60% of the 2,000 people surveyed believe that on-line gambling sites are fixed and that winners are predetermined and few and far between.

According to the President of Greenfield, Rudy Nadilo, and I quote, he said, "The message of this research is that those behind on-line gambling sites must do more to win the confidence of people who visit their site.".

MGAM and some of our travel customers believe that we can develop an e-commerce system which we call e-com for the use of the different sovereign nations. This e-com system will meet a variety of economic development needs specific to each of the tribes that use it.

Most important it will assist the tribes in becoming leading suppliers of electronic services to game players, advertisers, retailers and other consumers. The heart of this e-com system will be a private channel digital telephone link, a public access internet link and a cable TV link all within the Betnet™ infra structure. Again Betnet™ being our multi-channel communication network.

Through either a newly developed or redesigned tribal web site, we'll be able to offer our travel partners a mechanism enabling them not only to advertise the products sold by their nation such as tobacco, arts and crafts, but also to position them to better serve their community by offering telephone services such as internet services, shopping agent services, environmental services, relocation services as well as and this is important, installing an agent player station or a proxy play station.

The agent player station or proxy play will allow players in a tribal gaming facility to play one of our MGAM's bingo games on behalf of players who are not present. This proxy play station will not only allow tribal members and non-tribal customers if so desired to play games, but also to shop, search and do research on behalf of people at another reservation or off the reservation.

This station which we have patented will be a plug in appliance that links our Betnet™ in hall local area network and the tribe's website.

One of the first proxy play games that will be offered on the beta test version of the system will be a high speed version of our new MegaBingo© game. Now, why do we want to do this proxy play? Well, in July of 1995 the Chairman of the National Indian Gaming Commission, of NIGC informed us that our Native American-owned customers could allow a special agent to play MegaBingo© on behalf of home viewers. He said, and I quote, "The NIGC has considered the question of whether this game is actually being played on Indian lands. There is no statutory prohibition against the use of agents for the conduct of bingo. Accordingly, the act of the agent which occur on Indian lands are deemed to be the acts of the principal."

After we received this opinion we ran proxy play over the internet for about a year. As I recall we had players from Greece, Australia, Canada, Germany and other places as well as the United States.

We discussed our internet activity with the NIGC and they seem to have no problem with it. The only concern that they seem to have was political rather than legal. In fact one NIGC legal staff member said she saw no problem as long as we didn't make too much serious amount of money for the tribes.

At the same time though both Missouri and Minnesota took exception to our right to use proxy play on behalf of the people in their states. And together we and the attorneys general in those two states agreed to let the federal court decide the issue.

While we had previously won a court decision on this very issue in Oklahoma we stopped proxy play after we had the MegaMania© bingo computer raid of New Year's Eve 1997 simply because the MegaMania© case was so important and we didn't want to be distracted by fighting legal battles on two separate fronts simultaneously. We ended up financing that MegaBingo© case almost entirely ourselves. We spent over $4.5 million dollars, which we've talked about before.

Today I think we'll see that the tribes are willing to stand up and fight those fights more themselves and really don't need our involvement.

Since then, in September 2000, a number of the NIGC staff who had previously worked for the Justice Department, but wasn't around when we received our initial opinion, wrote a contradictory opinion stating in a footnote that the person for whom the proxy player is playing must also either be on the reservation or open his account while on the reservation.

Fortunately case law doesn't give too much credence or doesn't give much credence at all to a staff member opinion especially if that opinion contradicts the opinion of the Commission Chairman as was the case in this example.

Recent federal decisions in the 9th and 10th Circuit Courts regarding MGAM's MegaBingo© or MegaMania© game as well as a decision on pull tabs in the D.C. Circuit clarify the right of Native American operated gaming establishments to run just about any bingo game they want and to use technology in just about any way they want unless it's clearly prohibited by IGRA.

And IGRA explicitly instructs the tribes to use the latest technology on and off the reservation to run bingo games as long as the bingo games meet three criteria. That they're played with cards either paper or electronic bearing symbols. When objects with similar symbols are drawn, are electronically determined and in which the game is won by the first person covering a previously designated arrangement of symbols on such cards. There aren't any other constraints.

Nevada regulators have placed a ban on internet wagering in that state, but we believe that there's little question that that ban will be reversed very soon. Even today most state lotteries are running websites and a few are allowing game play of lottery games on the internet.

Horse racing is being offered over the internet and on interactive TV in the United States. And free play games are everywhere on the internet.

Most interesting the Greenfield Online survey found that most internet gamblers visit and play at multiple betting sites. Our partner and partially owned subsidiary, GameBay.com is among the top ten such sites with the two most popular sites being Freelotto.com and Gamesville.com. All three of these sites are for free games for prizes.

Our site GameBay.com has on average more than 200 players on line 24 hours per day while the other two sites have averaged upwards of 2,000 on line 24 hours per day.

The Greenfield survey didn't distinguish between free play games for prizes type sites or true gambling sites, and we don't believe most players make any distinction except for the size of the prizes and the odds of winning those prizes.

In other words, internet consumers seem to value their time as much as their money. There is no better group of licensed gaming operators to bring gambling to the off-shore internet consumer than the North American gaming consumer than Native American gaming operators.

Native American sponsored internet gambling brings a number of marketing advantages. Number one, the world has confidence that Native American gaming is fair and well regulated.

Number two, Native American on-line bingo games have good brand appeal. Games are presently running on-line across multi-hull private network links on Native American land all across the country and are already being played and are well known and they're generating large jackpots that are won regularly.

Number three, the world marketplace is interested in American products but sometimes there is some resistance to American products. Native Americans don't seem to have that problem. Native Americans are viewed internationally as attractive, heroic and somewhat exotic and interesting people. They command a high degree of sympathy and respect.

In the end, if we and our travel partners can recruit as few as 200 on-line players, 24 hours per day to participate in our high-speed bingo games via the internet, we'll generate an estimated additional revenue of $144,000 per day from which we will realize an EBITDA of about $30,000 per day.

Moreover, if we can recruit 600 simultaneous players on-line for 24 hours per day we could realize a $30 million per year increase in EBITDA.

Clearly there's tremendous uncertainty in this vision of the future that I've painted for MGAM here today. New laws that significantly change IGRA's intent to expand commercial gambling by using the latest technology on and off Indian land could reverse the entire structure of Native American gaming.

However I doubt if a divided Congress will expend much energy on such a difficult and dubious task. There's no question in my mind that America's gaming tribes need to focus their attention on one task right now and that's capitalizing on the new court established definition of Class II gaming.

We all realize that the tribes might feel that they don't have the resources to fight the political battle of internet gaming while defending the laws defining Class II gaming. In today's rapidly changing environment, regulatory environment, technical environment and market environment it's very difficult to predict the future.

What I've set out to do here today is to first describe our present status, and then give my personal forward looking views on the internet and how it could affect travel gaming and Multimedia Games. And certainly there's a lot of uncertainty.

One thing that is certain is that the MGAM management team believes that the company is seriously undervalued. That said our board of directors has authorized management to buy back our stock, we're buying back our stock and we expect to continue to do so for some time.

Now I'd like to ask our President, Clifton Lind to say a few words and then we'll see if there's any questions.

MR. LIND:  Thank you, Gordon. I think you did a great job on your presentation but I'd like to add a couple of additional points. After the really great quarter that the staff turned in during our 4th quarter of FY 2000, I know that we might be disappointed about the fact that our 1^st quarter is just going to be equal or a little bit better than what we saw last year. However I want to make a point that we spent that entire quarter focusing on developing three new systems for our tribal gaming customers. And we are only just now beginning to deploy the first of those systems.

We developed a skill game system. We developed an electronic pull tab system, and as you talked about earlier we developed the MegaNanza system. I think even though there is surely going to be some regulators both tribal and governmental that are going to look hard at maybe the MegaNanza series of games because they're so innovative even though we are totally convinced that they are legal Class II gaming that in some markets we may have to substitute our skill games where they're more desirable or pull tab games.

And these electronic pull tab games I think have a great application in the lottery industry, and as Gordon has told you it's one of our goals to expand beyond Native American gaming into the lotteries and to the charities this year. And I think Multimedia Games has the most exciting cadre of games available and we will certainly get some of our units out in some of the new markets.

We have doubled our software staff in the last 12 months and next Monday we'll have a new senior scientist joining our staff and so I think that we're well poised to make even greater stride technically in the next year than we had this year. And this year has been very impressive in what our technical team has done.

So I know that Skip Lannert, our Executive Vice President in charge of game design and Gary Loebig, who's Executive Vice President in charge of sales and marketing and I all share with Gordon excitement about the future, and yes, we had more conservative goals because the odds against you know every single thing going in our favor are pretty long in most situations, but realistically we have so many opportunities there are going to be a lot of good things and exciting things happen in the next 12 months.

Back to you, Gordon.

MR. GRAVES:  Thank you, sir. So I'd like to open it up for questions if anybody's had the patience to stay with us through my long speech.

OPERATOR:  Thank you, sir.  The question and answer session will begin now. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up the handset before pressing any numbers. Should you have a question, please press 1 followed by 4 on your pushbutton telephones. Should you wish to withdraw your question, please press 1 followed by 3. Your questions will be taken in the order they are received. Please standby for your first question.

Our first question in queue comes from Mr. Hank Erlich. Please state your affiliation followed by your question.

MR. ERLICH:  Glen Michael Financial International in New York. Just wanted to touch base with you. In looking at my screen, and we clear through Prudential by the way so it's a pretty comprehensive screen, I notice that nobody follows the company. With an exciting story like you've just presented to us what are you guys going to do to get a few more people following the company because, in another words, I think it's a better time to be buying the stock now especially like young brokers who are always looking for a good story to reach new clients with as opposed to after some of the new items that you have in research and development hit the streets and all. And hopefully the stock price is up by then?

MR. LIND:  Well, we feel one of the most important things to do is for us to get some research coverage and we're talking to two or three different organizations now that are well respected in their ability to do research in the gaming equipment supplier market, and we think that we're going to be able to be successful in someone doing some research for us.

And then we just plan to spend more time and have a little more dedicated effort in talking to firms like yourself and making sure that young brokers understand what we're doing and just being of help wherever we can and trying to make sure that our story is being told to those people who can control those investments.

MR. ERLICH:  Okay. Yeah, I think the big thing is that especially some of the younger guys I notice, some of the younger guys in my office that struggle a little bit. The nice thing that you have is that you're earning money and I don't think that it's really a good idea to go out there and have anything that isn't earning some money especially with new clients, but it seems like this could be a story that could last several years and that's why certainly coverage would be most beneficial.

MR. LIND:  All right. Well, I appreciate that.

OPERATOR:  Thank you. The next question in queue comes from Jim Devlin. Please state your affiliation followed by your question.

MR. DEVLIN:  Hey, Gordon. How are you?  It's Jim Devlin from Raymond James.

MR. GRAVES:  Hi Jim, it's good to hear your voice.

MR. DEVLIN:  That's okay. Just trying to get a feel or a flavor from, I mean you had a legal settlement in the last year and it looks as though most of the legal hurdles or if not all of the legal hurdles are behind you now. So you kind of have the market pretty much to yourself other than some competition from a private company. Is that correct?

MR. GRAVES:  Well, I'd say that our most serious and most likely competition as we move into these new product areas is really two private companies. That's right. Two private companies are our primary, potential competitors. Although there's one or two public companies like Game Tech, for example, could possibly decide to become a competitor. But right now, yeah, there's not much competition. We certainly are well ahead of everybody else.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay. Now from a cash flow standpoint just valuing the company as compared to other companies. I don't know if it's a direct comparison, do you think it's a good comp to compare Game Tech to other equipment manufacturers like IGT or Williams, companies like that on an EBITDA cash flow basis, EPS basis. How do you think the story should be valued? What would you give us as a comp peer group?

MR. GRAVES:  Well, I think that probably the casino suppliers are probably more similar in that it's the same type of products that we're supplying to Native Americans that the casino industry is supplying to their customers. Although the vehicle's a little bit different, but the game content is probably more similar, and probably the recurring revenue model is more similar.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay. Now, I just had a couple more questions just to flush out my own earnings model that I'm building here. As far you did $14 million EBITDA cash flow last year. Now you started off the call by saying you thought that the company in your eyes could double that going into this year.

MR. GRAVES:  Let me put it another way.

MR. DEVLIN:  Go ahead.

MR. GRAVES:  Clifton was talking about how our staff is growing and how we've got this new talent that's come aboard and how the young people are getting more and more capable. If our organization were one year further in that development --

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay.

MR. GRAVES:  -- today there's little question in my mind that we'd be able to double our EBITDA.

MR. DEVLIN:  In the $30 million area?

MR. GRAVES:  Yeah. I don't think we'll do that.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay.

MR. GRAVES:  Because things always go wrong.

MR. DEVLIN:  Uh-huh.

MR. GRAVES:  And we do have a young organization that's coming together and it's exciting to see it jell like it is.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay. So you counter the doubling EBITDA by using Clifton's estimates I guess, which would be 30 to 40 percent growth? Using the low end that's 30 times 14. You're saying that the company, I mean I'm not going to put words in your mouth but is it safe to use 18 to 20 million dollars as an EBITDA run rate for this year?

MR. GRAVES:  Well, let me put it this way. As I said before we sure think it's undervalued where it is, yeah. I can't argue with your arithmetic.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay. So we've got 5.5 million shares in the stock at six and a half dollars. Thirty-five point seven million plus four million in debt. Forty million. So the stock is selling for about two times cash flow at these prices? Is that on a forward 12-month basis?  Is that something you'd be comfortable with?

MR. GRAVES:  Well, you know it's hard for us to say anymore with all these new rules we've got. And by the way, we've filed an 8-K.

MR. DEVLIN:  Uh-huh.

MR. GRAVES:  That essentially repeats the speech that I made here today and with today's new rules, Jim, you know it is just so hard for us to say anymore than that.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay.

MR. GRAVES:  But you know, the --

MR. DEVLIN:  The reason I'm saying is the company is lightly and basically not covered by anybody on Wall Street? I'm just trying to dummy up some number for my own edification.

MR. GRAVES:  Yeah. I don't see anything wrong with your arithmetic.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay.

MR. GRAVES:  It's good to see that.

MR. DEVLIN:  And the only other question I have is this. You guys had signed a major licensing agreement with Williams WMS Gaming --

MR. GRAVES:  Yes.

MR. DEVLIN:  -- to take some of their content and put it in the Class II marketplace. Basically taking Vegas style games and adapting or twisting the content to your liking or to your niche. Do you see yourselves joint venturing with other slot manufacturers and taking some of their content into your marketplace?

MR. GRAVES:  We're working hard on doing that.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay.

MR. GRAVES:  And I think we'll be successful.

MR. DEVLIN:  Okay. Very good. I appreciate it. The company looks great. Stock's behaving real well and wish you guys a lot of success.

MR. GRAVES:  Thank you, Jim.

OPERATOR:  The next question in queue comes from Mr. David Ehlers. Please state your affiliation followed by your question.

MR. EHLERS:  Yes. Our affiliation is Las Vegas Investment Advisors. Nice job, Gordon, explaining your complex outlook. It is really difficult to say what you might see in the future but let me ask you this about your Class II games that you've installed now, I believe in three Indian gaming halls. What is your installed base? What is that number in those three halls and what is the outlook for installation say over the next 60 days? Certainly you should be able to see those pretty well.

MR. GRAVES:  I think that's, do we have a third hall up now, Clifton?

MR. LIND:  No. We're putting up a third hall this week.

MR. GRAVES:  Do you want to answer this?

MR. LIND:  In those two halls we have 25 machines in one hall and 35 machines in the other hall. We will have in one of those halls that is an initial order and the ultimate number of machines will be many times that. In the other hall there are severe space constraints, and until they expand the hall itself that will be the number that we keep in that.

Our typical installation we think will be 25 to 75 machines per hall and we currently have a backlog of over 500 machines to install just as quick as we can get them in, and it will take us two to three months just to cover that backlog. And there is a current trade show going on, there's a great deal of interest. We expect that backlog to grow rather substantially as a result of this trade show, and as a result of the operations of these machines in the first few weeks.

MR. EHLERS:  Can you tell me where that trade show is?  That's not the London Gaming Show is it?

MR. LIND:  No. It is out in California. It's a trade show that is primarily aimed at the --

MR. EHLERS:  So that was for yesterday and today?

MR. LIND:  -- and the Southwest.

MR. EHLERS:  Is that the one in Palm Springs?

MR. LIND:  That is correct.

MR. EHLERS:  And that was yesterday and today I think.

MR. LIND:  That is correct.

MR. EHLERS:  Yes. Okay. Well, good job guys. Well, we'll hope that it all works out just as fractionally as well as it could.

MR. LIND:  Thanks, Dave.

OPERATOR:  Once again, should anyone have any further questions, please press 1 followed by 4 on your pushbutton telephones.

At this time, there are no further questions in queue.

MR. GRAVES:  Thanks everybody.

OPERATOR:  Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our conference for today. If you would like to access rebroadcast of this call you may do so by dialing 1-800-428-6051 or 973-709-2089 with an I.D. number of 154786. Thank you all for participating and have a nice day. All parties may now disconnect.

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